Please feel free to add your thoughts and comments to this discussion. Responses will be added later!
Note that the music included are samples of the songs that helped inspired John as he wrote
Between These Walls
John, Welcome to Book Readers Heaven! I believe your book has
fulfilled what I've been looking for...covering two important issues with which
I've been interested and intrigued for all of my adult life. Christianity and
Sexuality. Not only have you written that book, but you've done it with such
sensitivity, depth, and power, that I've already declared it a must-read in my
review!
I think I know, but for the benefit of our readers, why did
you decide to tackle two such controversial topics in one book and did you have
any specific reason to do so?
Thank you
for your words. I just hope when people read my novels, they find honest friends
in the protagonists.
To answer
your first question, my best story concepts arise when a character emerges in
my soul. With Between These Walls, a
Christian middle-school student character arose within me, and I imagined his
struggle, not only with the truth of how he felt inside, but how he felt he couldn't talk about it. When a character grabs my heart that way, he doesn't let go until I tell his story.
To reach
a wider audience, I opted against a YA novel, instead choosing to place Hunter
Carlisle, my protagonist, in his 20s. The original YA concept appears when
Hunter reflects on his coming-of-age years. I posted the whole
story-behind-the-story at my website here: www.johnherrick.net/betweenthesewalls/authornote.htm
Although you don't really have what might be called a
conclusion to the primary issue of homosexuality, I'm going to assume you've
spent some time in reading and researching the Christian viewpoint. Would it be
possible for you to merge the various opinions, sort of like the positive and
negative sides of those opinions?
I
researched enough to construct the novel, but can’t pretend to be an expert.
That said, within the Christian arena, you’ll find the same range of nature vs.
nurture opinions as in the mainstream arena. My goal in writing Between These Walls was to set those
opinions aside and focus on how we see Jesus operate in the Bible: He walked
with love and mercy. My goal was to challenge us all to consider the nuances in
how we treat people, and how our words and actions can have unspoken
consequences.
You’re
right, the book doesn't offer a conclusion to the issue, which was by design.
Life is a process, a journey. In the end, Hunter doesn't have all the answers
to his questions, but he lives his life the best he can, and I tried to leave
room for the reader to interpret how the story ends. By the end of the story,
we see an anonymous human character who symbolizes Hunter’s relationship with
God. Ultimately, Between These Walls
is a story not about an issue, but about one man’s journey. It offers a glimpse
into subtle changes that occur in Hunter’s heart as it churns through moments
of private honesty.
Now, I'll be upfront with you on my own opinion held for many
years. Homosexuality is not a choice and therefore when an individual begins to
recognize his or her own situation, then there should be an automatic source of
support and guidance to help that individual choose what is best for their
future. Hopefully, that place would be the church if they want spiritual
guidance. My opinion of the church, however, is that it has failed--badly--in
the entire spectrum of sexuality in today's world... Whew! 'Nuf said. Now it's
your turn, LOL
The Bible
refers to the church as a family. It refers to us as brothers and sisters,
treating each other as members of the same family. Churches should be a place
of refuge, just as families provide refuge. Unfortunately, finding refuge in some
churches can be difficult, or perhaps it exists but isn't “advertised,” so
people live without knowing it’s available. I believe many churches don’t know
how to address the topic, so they leave it unspoken. That doesn't rock the
boat—but it also leaves struggling souls feeling alone. That’s not intended as
a criticism on my part, because I have my own slew of faults. I just want to
offer a perspective some might not have considered.
Well, John, my thoughts are the same except mine are more critical of the church. Nobody can not see the changes sexual issues has brought to today's world. If the church is to be responsive, then it too must talk to the woman, or man, at the well, just as Jesus did... But I realize that I've had many more years to have seen the differences in church and all elements of society...
John, I want to again commend you on the characters
you've created. Although the two main characters are, of course, Hunter
Carlisle and Gabe Hellman, I thought that the two pastors were a realistic
presentation of the what I referred to above as the positive and negative
sides, the latter quite well! I was a little disappointed, however, with
Hunter's pastor, from this standpoint. Everywhere we look--in the media,
television, motion pictures, printed materials--sex surrounds us. Personally, I
believe the church must take an active role, not as passive
counseling/listening, in helping Christians with their sexuality issues.
Otherwise, we are, truly, as your title states, Between These Walls, and I
define that as being alone. Am I expecting too much that Hunter's pastor
should have offered to spend time with him, should have offered a basis that
could lead to guidance and decision-making choices?
No,
you’re not expecting too much. I tried to imply that to the reader when Hunter
visits his pastor on multiple occasions. Perhaps if I introduced more specific
dialogue, I would have felt obligated to delve into more chapters of pastoral
discussion. My primary goal was to focus on Hunter’s heart and inner journey,
and the impact other individuals make upon his heart. Because the book is a
mainstream novel, I introduced his church life as one aspect of his journey,
but felt an overemphasis might have drawn readers away from the crux of Hunter’s
story. On a similar note, a tragic event occurs toward the end of the novel
(avoiding a spoiler here!). Originally, I had planned to delve much deeper into
the aftermath of that event, but realized it would have pulled the novel’s
focus away from Hunter’s journey and refocused it there. So it all boiled down
to keeping a balance with events and allowing Hunter to maintain ownership of
his story.
Ahhh, understood. And I understand that my own concerns about the church is not the primary theme of your book... This helps me and others clarify the basic theme of your story nicely.
When Hunter is dating Kara, they have mutually decided on a
no-sex before marriage relationship. Two parts to this question...
Was Hunter really using that excuse because he
had no interest in having sex with Kara?
Deep
down, he had no interest in having sex with Kara. However, Hunter wasn't at a point in his life’s journey where he could admit that to himself. And he does
believe in saving himself for his one and only, though he doesn't have a
perfect track record there, either. Like all of us, Hunter tries to make sense
of where he is.
Ultimately, the Christian life is based on an individual relationship: the
Excellent responsive answer...Even if we still have no definitive answer. That, to me, is exactly why we cannot ever make judgments against somebody else...
Let me expand the coverage of your book by spotlighting that
I found that your book has value well beyond the homosexual issue explored. The
way it is written, it is quite easy for any individual to substitute their own
sexuality issues, male or female, straight or gay. Ellen was a good example of
showing that problems are encountered and fear builds up in just about any type
of intimate relationship. Which all leads to my question. How, if, and why
should the church be involved in helping sort out sexuality issues for
individuals in an intimate relationship? Or should the church be involved at
all?
Again,
the Christian walk boils down to the relationship between Christ and the
individual. I believe the church is relevant and should be accessible for the
full span of issues in life. The question I tried to pose was this: Do
individuals know the church is
accessible for “their” issue, whatever that issue might be? The church is an
institution, but more than that, it is a body of individuals. Can we go to
those individuals and find love and mercy? Will we find people who will keep
our confidence? In other words, have Christians—and the other people in our
lives, as well—matured to that point?
In your book, you provide resource material, including a
study guide. I mentioned I wanted to throw some of these questions back to you
to answer yourself in order to give readers a chance to learn more about what
is covered...Here's the first one:
Hunter has kept his sexual
attractions a secret for 14 years. Was there a time in your life when you found
it easier to build walls around yourself than to face the truth?
Definitely!
I’m an introvert who internalizes almost everything! In that way, my
protagonists and I are alike. Like Hunter (and everybody else), I’m on a
journey. In some areas of my life, I’m in that walled stage. In other areas,
I’ve opened up. Two years ago, I released a nonfiction book, 8 Reasons Your Life Matters, where I
open up about some of those walled areas. For those who read e-books, you can
download it for free at most retail sites. (That’s not a plug! It’s just an
attempt to offer more transparency than a quick answer here.)
I'm glad you mentioned that. I downloaded it months ago, but haven't read it yet, but understand it's been a hit across the world...so now look forward to reading it even more!
Hunter has solid faith, yet he harbored a
secret. Do you consider his actions hypocritical?
Not at
all. Hunter holds a genuine heart for God. His motive isn't to deceive. In
fact, he craves the opportunity to
open up but doesn't know who he can trust with his deepest secret, someone who
will still love and accept him where he is, regardless of how that looks. If he
knew who that person was, he would open up in a heartbeat. And the fact that he
questions whether his actions are
hypocritical shows his sincerity. We’re not hypocrites for being in a growth
pattern. I’d view hypocrisy as pointing fingers at others while denying we have
our own issues. (Did I mention I have my own issues?! Just being real here!)
Well, I'll definitely admit I've had issues all my life--not the same ones, but, still, places where I've felt lost...
Did you find any aspects of this novel a particular
challenge?
If Hunter feels vulnerable in a chapter, or if the reader feels
vulnerable reading a chapter, then it's safe to say I felt vulnerable writing
that chapter. Several chapters
invade Hunter's privacy, where Hunter is alone or we explore his sensitive
thoughts to which we wouldn't otherwise have access. Those chapters proved
challenging for me due to the vulnerability of allowing readers into the most
sensitive realms of the male psyche. Hunter would never talk about what went
through his mind in those chapters, but I needed to delve into them to tell his
story.
Why did you incorporate a faith element into Between These
Walls?
When I began writing novels, I had no interest in writing
faith-related fiction. I felt it meant a load of rules and red tape for what I
couldn't write or explore. But a difference exists between the Christian
fiction genre and weaving faith into a mainstream novel, as John Grisham
demonstrated in The Testament. When I
constructed From the Dead, a prior novel, I had intended to write a
mainstream novel with no faith element whatsoever. Its main character, Jesse
Barlow—who reemerges in Between These Walls—was a preacher's son filled
with regret. As I considered that novel's chain of events and who Jesse was, I
realized I couldn't give an accurate depiction of him without delving into his
faith background. Once I discovered I could weave a faith element into a
mainstream novel in a realistic manner, I fell in love with it. I wanted to
accomplish it again: to chronicle a character's struggle in a way readers
wouldn't find among the Christian fiction genre. And as a mainstream
novel, I don’t need to censor my characters. They are free to behave and speak
the way they truly would, as if we overheard them in a restaurant. The one
requirement I place upon myself is that my novels are genuine and
plausible—which can’t happen if I whitewash the characters or their language.
As I've already mentioned, the merge of these two issues was
the main reason I've named your novel as, for me, something new: Best Novel
Read in Last 5 Years (or more). For me, your willingness to be open as you've
said, gave me new insight on the homosexual male. I've been honored
to work with three books in the past on homosexual males, all who were writing
about HIV, and did not really get far into the personal internal life. Also,
homosexual characters in other books I've read were merely characters within
the book and readers were not given the opportunity to really meet them. Your
book does just that!
Hunter's internal life, and to some extent, Gabe's, provided
readers with all the feelings of fear, humiliation and anxiety of the
homosexual, but also gave us immediate feedback on how we, as Christians, are
sometimes totally insensitive in normal conversation: snide remarks that can
jab a knife into somebody else's heart! I was especially happy to have you
include the remarks made in the Bible study group. To me, it is quite different
to have a certain belief based upon your religion, than to take a step further
and ridicule or laugh at an issue that could actually be faced by a member of
that group discussion...
John, could you tell us more about your self-defined role as
a "Broken Christian"?
That’s my
best catch-all attempt at honesty. Like everyone else, I've made my mistakes in
life and had my regrets, and although I’m a Christian, I don’t feel I’m the
best representative of Christ out there. From another angle, I've heard it said
that writers are wounded people, which I consider true. Writing is great
therapy. It’s difficult to dig into the depths of human despair (and joy)
without having experienced the deepest degrees of those emotional realms. I
dealt with a lot of years of depression growing up—the 24/7,
six-weeks-at-a-time kind. And because, from a young age through adulthood, my
interests and internal wiring never seemed to match up with those of the people
around me, I've never felt like I fit in with anyone else, including in the church environment, like something’s amiss inside or I never learned something
that everyone else did. More than anything, I think that’s the part that makes
me feel broken. But that broken feeling comes coupled with a blessing: a unique
perspective on life, which becomes a unique voice as a writer and provides a
unique degree of emotional “street credibility.” I wouldn't trade it for anything.
While I earlier thought and said this phrase also fit my life, now I know it...
And tell us more about your songwriting? Any songs you can
share with us??!!!
In my
novel The Landing, protagonist is a
singer-songwriter. As bonus content on my website, I posted a handful of my
song lyrics under the guise of his song journal. You can find them here: www.johnherrick.net/thelanding/songjournal.htm
I was hoping you might have recorded them, but I wanted to share this one since it obviously has relevance to Hunter's thoughts, don't you think?
I was hoping you might have recorded them, but I wanted to share this one since it obviously has relevance to Hunter's thoughts, don't you think?
I WANTED TO BE USED
I felt alone
I felt I had no one
You and I
Were burned by the sun
It took some time
It took some confusion
It took two hearts
Singed by delusion
I felt I had no one
You and I
Were burned by the sun
It took some time
It took some confusion
It took two hearts
Singed by delusion
CHORUS:
And there I stood with open arms
Subject to emotional harm
I wanted to be used
I wanted to be used by you
I never thought twice to play the fool
I saw you as a jewel
Ready and willing to be used
I wanted you to use me
I wanted to be used by you
And there I stood with open arms
Subject to emotional harm
I wanted to be used
I wanted to be used by you
I never thought twice to play the fool
I saw you as a jewel
Ready and willing to be used
I wanted you to use me
I wanted to be used by you
You opened up
I thought you let me in
Naive was I
From where I'd been
I misunderstood
I missed my call
Each time you asked me to jump
I took the fall
CHORUS
I thought you let me in
Naive was I
From where I'd been
I misunderstood
I missed my call
Each time you asked me to jump
I took the fall
CHORUS
Copyright 2012 John Herrick
I haven’t written a song in over 10 years, but it was my hobby throughout my teens and early 20s. At the time, I hadn't found a way to complete a novel or other long-term creative projects, so songwriting provided bite-size projects. I never pursued it as a profession, but it laid a foundation for my voice as a novelist: dialogue, emotion, word choices. Songs are short stories, snapshots that freeze a moment in time.
In high
school, I wrote a song called “Between These Walls.” I wasn't thrilled with the song, so it went in the file cabinet, but the title burned in me for the next
20 years. As I searched for titles for Hunter’s story, something to capture his
emotional state, “Between These Walls” proved a perfect match.
Hunter obviously has a personal relationship with God. And we
are given assurances we are never alone. Still Hunter, and most of us, still
crave the touch--a hug, holding someone's hand... At a church I once attended,
I was caught in a emotional situation, started crying and went outside. The
pastor followed and chose to hug me even though he added "we're not
supposed to do this" and kept looking around... Needless to say, that hug
gave me no encouragement! We have become so isolated and so in fear that we are
no longer able to seek touch except through what we are, in effect, not to
participate in without marriage...Sex! I think your book allows readers to
think of Hunter's feelings, even we females, but this is fiction... What is the
answer for real life?
Recognizing
and respecting proper boundaries goes without saying. But beyond that, I
believe our relationships and interactions would look much different if we
allowed ourselves to be genuine more often. Really, we’re all screwed up in
some way or another. Why pretend we’re not? Admitting it gives us more
credibility to reach out to others.
You close one chapter with a question "If they
couldn't find hope in their church, not even with their pastor, to whom could
they turn?" What would you want your readers
to discover as a result of your book?
We impact
others more than we realize. I’d want readers—and me too—to ask ourselves, “Do
we hurt other people for the sake of our pride?” And if so, how much is it
worth to hurt another soul?
Randy, in a flashback by Hunter, responds to the question of
whether he knew anybody gay, with "Don't make me puke, Can you
imagine how disgusting that would be? They should round 'em up and keep 'em
together in a colony or something, like they used to do with the fucking
lepers." Yet, later in adult life Randy came and told him he
supported Hunter. What do you want the readers to see in that dramatic change
of heart?
We all
grow. We all deal with regrets about how we've treated people, and I wanted to illustrate that in Randy. Randy made that original remark as a teenager. During
those coming-of-age years, amid the insecurities inherent in them, we enter
self-preservation mode. For most young males, the mere suspicion that he might be gay is among his worst nightmares.
Oftentimes, they overcompensate as a defense mechanism, saying whatever they
need to say to either hide the fact those feelings exist or to prove its
non-existence. That early remark shows Randy in overcompensation mode. Randy didn't intend to hurt anyone; the poor kid was just scared.
One of the results of Hunter being "outed" was the
response of "Christians." One pastor and others immediately took the
offense, quoting scripture... Yet another pastor, used many parts of the Bible
to explain what really might be the intent of scripture. Bottom line, John,
from your study and research for the Book, what does God say about
homosexuality?
People
can come up with arguments on both sides of the issue, citing words and
language translations and historical contexts. Personally, I’d rather look at
how God says to treat others: with love and mercy. Love never fails. Love
believes the best about others. More than anything, we need to know we’re
loved. If love exists, the rest is covered. We can agree, or we can agree to
disagree, but we love nonetheless.
And based upon that answer, what do you personally believe
about those who identify themselves as homosexual?
Frankly,
I don’t consider sexuality a factor that defines a person. We can be
homosexual, heterosexual, male, female, black, white, high income, low income,
highly educated, little educated, or any degree in between. Those are all
surface-level characteristics, but who we truly are—that exists entirely in the
heart. It’s the aspect of us that cannot
be physically seen, yet it manifests itself in how we treat others.
Thank you John for this wonderful time of discussion! God Bless your continued writing!
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