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I am so excited to have C. K. Laurence and Jerry Lyons here at Book Readers Heaven! You've certainly garnered attention with your new Ricky Burns Mystery Series!
Hi, I'm C. K. Laurence and I'm anauthor, crusader for democracy, Dolphin fan & cocreator of RICKY BURNS MYSTERIES.... In case you're interested, it was my book, The Mystery of Jessica Benson which caught the attention of Jerry Lyons... And, by the way, of Glenda Bixler, book reviewer... I've asked her to add a link to that, since we have in a few ways, been together since then...
Hi, I’m Jerry Lyons—the real Ricky Burns. I thought you might like to know how Ricky Burns Mysteries was developed.
I started out as a uniformed police officer in Manhattan. From there I transferred to a City-Wide anti-crime unit, which was plain clothes—known as The Task Force. From The Task Force, the top officers were chosen as detectives in groups of ten or twelve. I was number one the year I was promoted to Third Grade Detective. Within five years I was promoted to First Grade Detective where I worked in the Major Case Unit. As a Major Case First Grade Detective I investigated homicides, rapes and other serious crimes.
In 1994, after twenty years on the job I retired and became a private investigator—which I still am. As a private investigator I have been lucky enough to work with some of the country’s top attorneys on high profile murder cases such as the Casey Anthony case in Florida, the Aaron Hernandez double murder case in Boston and a doctor charged with seventeen murders in Ohio. All my clients have been found not guilty and the cases keep coming.
I thought it might be fun to write fictional versions about the more publicized cases and give inside information to the public that may not have come out in the news. The problem is that I can hardly spell, never mind write. I’d finished reading one of C.K.’s mysteries and I reached out to her to see if she might be interested in teaming up with me and she loved the idea.
And, welcome, C.K. and Jerry! I truly appreciate your willingness to allow me to ask questions about you and your books! You're the first Writing Duo visiting here so obviously my curiosity was aroused. Of course, most readers are like me and wonder just how the two of you got together to collaborate on books! Tell us Everything!
C.K.With regard to how we met and how we work, it’s really quite a story.
Jerry sent me a direct message on Facebook. He introduced himself and told me about his professional career as a New York City major case, homicide detective, and his work now as a private investigator. He had read one of my books, liked my style and he’d been thinking of putting some of his many high profile cases into books. He suggested that I would be the right person to write his stories.
My automatic response to people writing to me through direct message (who I don’t know, especially males) was to delete them. Jerry sent his résumé, and just before I hit the delete button I looked it over. I noticed that he had worked in the Stewart area. As it happens, my brother who is a criminal defense attorney lives and works in that area so I figured what the hell—I’ll give my brother a call and see if he’s ever heard of this yo-yo. Not only did my brother know him, but he had used his services, and was so impressed that Jerry wanted me to write with him that he said in no uncertain terms “do it!”
Jerry:I've lived a pretty exciting life, first as a cop/detective and then as a private investigator. I was blessed to be able to be a cop/detective in the 1970s, 80s and 90s in New York City when crime was at its highest. When I retired and became a private investigator, I was again blessed to be able to hook up with some of the best and brightest criminal defense attorneys in America. Because of these experiences my children and other people told me for years that I should write a book. I kept putting it off but when I moved from Florida to Maryland in 2021, I decided it was time to try it. I joke around telling people that I can't spell never mind write a book, but I really didn't have the confidence in myself that I would be able to write one without help. I had the cases and the stories, but I didn't know how to put them on paper or how to build a story behind them. On Facebook we can see friends of our friends and I noticed that C.K. was a friend of a friend and also an author. I also saw on her page that she lived in "lower, slower Delaware." This area of Delaware is only 6 miles from my house in Maryland and C.K. is only a 45-minute car ride from me. I sent her a message with my ideas and asked her if she would be willing to meet with me. Lucky for me, her brother is a lawyer in Florida who I worked a couple of cases for. She asked him about me, and he gave her the green light to meet with me. A couple of weeks later we began working on Two in the Head, the first book in the Ricky Burns Mysteries.
I've watched James Patterson constantly sharing author's names in practically all of his books. For you and Jerry, how do you work together? How do you decide what kind of mystery topic will be covered?
Jerry:Right now, CK and I get together at her house three days a week to write. I get there around 10 and leave between 3 and 4. Each day CK's husband joins us for lunch at noon (he really makes our lunch each day and is a real good guy). While writing, we sit on the couch in the living room, and I'll go through a case and what really happened in that case. We take it in steps and do a little bit of the case at a time. After a little discussion, C.K. will then type, and I'll play with the dog. After she types a few paragraphs, she will read it back to me and then the two of us will fine tune it. We continue on through the case and through the book like this until it's finished. In the end, we do everything together and nothing goes on paper unless the two of us agree on it.
C.K. I made arrangements with Jerry to meet with me. He drove from Maryland where he lives to my home in Delaware. He showed up with a stack of police files on the Aaron Hernandez case. We had an instant connection and started writing immediately. We’ve continued to write without stopping since then. We’ve completed three books and are now working on our fourth Jerry drives from Maryland to Delaware at least three times a week and we work in my home , we laugh as much as we write and have become very dear friends. My husband and Jerry have also bonded and he’s been appointed to make our lunch on Jerry’s days here. The three of us eat together and that’s our only break on working days.
I've read all three of your books, and another by you, C.K., but I'd like to hone in on your last book for this interview, OK? Did you know that Killer Camp has been used by other writers? In fact, I had to work to find the right one when I purchased it. Do you think that using a name that others have used is good or bad? When I saw the name, I immediately thought of it being a horror book--you know, teens going to a campsite, saws and hammers hanging for the next slasher kill... Is that what you intended?
Actually, once I started reading, I thought of the KKK. There were members in my area in my early life, and now that they are again out in the open, I was curious whether the woman killed was black... On the other hand, you called them rednecks, so my second guess was white supremacists... Who did you want the characters to be?
Jerry: The cases for the first two books were pretty easy to decide upon. CK has a wealth of knowledge about football from when she worked for the University of Miami's football team. I worked the Aaron Hernandez double murder case in Boston, so we decided to start with that case. Two in the Head is fiction based on this case.
The Casey Anthony case was the biggest case in America and Casey is still considered the most hated person in America. I also worked this case so it was a no brainer that we should write about it. Oh Baby is fiction based on the Casey Anthony case.
I recently worked an appeals case where a woman was accused of killing a friend of hers by shooting her in the back of her head. Dateline covered this case. The accused woman was sentenced to life in prison. I went to visit her, and she told me that she didn't do it, that she was set up. This is probably the most dangerous case I worked on since becoming a private investigator and working for the defense. If she's telling me the truth, then the person who really did commit this murder is still out there and isn't going to be happy that I'm walking around asking questions. If she did do it, I know through my investigation that she could not have done it alone and if she didn't do it alone, that other person is not going to be happy with me. Normally I do everything by myself but because of the possible danger I had another investigator with me. In real life I think we put together a good case and hopefully my client will be granted a new trial. I wonder if Dateline will show up again if this happens. Killer Camp is fiction based on this case.
I did not know that Killer Camp was a title used by other writers. We had a hard time coming up with a title for this book. The case happened in an area of Florida commonly referred to as the Redneck Riviera. One of the suspects would go to a hunting camp and spent a lot of time there, not always hunting. He was friends with local cops who would also go to this camp. We discussed numerous titles and believed that Killer Camp was the best fit for the book. I don't think it's a bad thing that other books have the same title. I believe it's a good title for our book. I never even thought that anyone would think it was a horror book where teens would go to a campsite and be butchered. Today we do have these adult camps where right-wing militias get together. And today we do hear talk about when the revolution comes. I thought all of that fit pretty well with our title.
C. K. Killer Camp was not only our most controversial and difficult book to write, but it was also the most difficult to think of a name for. Our working title was just Rednecks. when it came time to give it a name for sale, we must’ve gone through 100 titles. We finally came up with Carter Goes to Camp: A Study in Terror, or something like that.
Unfortunately, our publisher said it sounded like a kid's book. We thought we’d never come up with a title that we could all agree on, but we finally settled on KILLER CAMP. After we’ve chosen our titles, we found that there were already books with the same title. All three of them had duplicates. You can’t copyright a name so we decided just to go with our thoughts and hoped people would recognize our names. It seems to have worked because people are buying our books.
Wow! I was wondering how you would use cases upon which to write your books. As a reader, I was even more fascinated reading them since they were related to actual cases!
We all know that during the four years of the past administration, there seemed to be a lot more violence come about--the KKK, White Supremacists, even Hitler's cult and specific militias such as Proud Boys. First in Virginia, which was bad enough when one woman was run over. Was it your intent to spotlight what was happening then--you know, the January 6th Insurrection?
And, if there was a connection, how do you see what is happening right now, with Trump continuing to run for the presidency, making even more violent threats against anybody and everybody that goes against him. In your book, you talk about the practice and planning being done at the Camp, for a revolution... Is that possible, Jerry?
At first I thought that Trump was trying to use his role with the Christian Nationalists with blood on his hands... However, he keeps talking about a bloodbath of one kind or another. If there was a connection to January 6th of your book, is there also a connection to the future?
Jerry:The woman that was killed was a white woman with a child and going through a divorce. Like you said the KKK is making a return; and now right out in the open we have white supremacists. The suspects and people I spoke with were rednecks. We wanted the characters to represent these redneck white supremacists who are supporters of Trump (red hats) and his call for a revolution if he loses the upcoming election. We wanted to bring attention to the cult followers of Trump and his constant talk of violence and a bloodbath, just as he encouraged his followers on January 6th. I believe there is a connection to the future if Trump loses the election. I personally hope he loses big and if his cult members are stupid enough to revolt, I hope the Army crushes them and we will be finished with them. I then hope Trump goes to jail for all the crimes he has committed, and we will also be finished with him.
C.K.We absolutely knew what was happening and our intent was one hundred percent to spotlight Trump, the MAGA movement and everything we know about it.
As you know, all our books are based on actual cases Jerry has or is working on. KILLER is based on one that took place in redneck country. His life was threatened more than once and they actually did bring on another (junior) investigator so he’d have someone to back him up. We do fictionalize portions of his work and blend other cases in occasionally.
None of the characters in KILLER were Black, but there are plenty of Lesbians. There is a Lesbian trailer camp that is terrorized by white supremacists—I would guess there are others as well. We’ve seen Roe destroyed. We have watched Trump say and do outrageous things, while making it very clear he wants to be a dictator, destroy his enemies, turn women into handmaidens and wipe any people out of America who are not White Anglos. We’ve witnessed how he treats women—I cringe regularly at his disgusting treatment and actions toward taking away all of their rights (along with anyone else that doesn’t fall into line with his beliefs). He proudly says outrageous things that anyone else would already have been tried and jailed for. Yet, while his followers are getting punished for obeying his commands, he’s still free and promising to escalate his horrendous agenda. I believe he’s got to be stopped NOW. Should he somehow get elected, we will see democracy destroyed immediately. I believe people when they tell me who they are.
I was raised by very liberal parents. They were activists and because of that I was exposed to an amazing world. At three I was handing out bumper stickers for Adlai Stevenson. I marched with them with Martin Luther King. I worked on JFK’s presidential campaign, as well as RFK, McGovern and others. I ran the Miami Office in Clinton’s campaign and, of course, Obama (where I had the good fortune to share a couple of small dinner parties with now President Biden). We’d need a huge amount of time to talk about all the campaigns and candidates I have worked for and with. Suffice it to say I treasure democracy and it is one of my greatest pleasures to have worked with so many who also feel as I do.
Writing with Jerry gives me a chance to speak out during this extraordinary time and I so appreciate the fact that I didn’t ‘delete’ him before I knew what a special relationship we would forge.
I don’t think anyone we’ve been interviewed by knows what I’m about to tell you, but you’ve been so supportive of us, I am going to share a little insider info with you. I think everyone knows that Jerry is the real-life Ricky Burns, but no one knows I call him Ricky or Mr. Burns. Regardless (here’s your little ‘scoop’)… Our days begin with a text that begins with “Good morning, Mr. Burns”—followed by “Good morning, Mrs. Burns.” We are the ultimate book husband and wife writing team!
I Love It! It reminds me of an article I was asked to write about working daily with men. I titled it "The Warning!" Think I'll have to pull it out and blog it on Book Readers Heaven... There is indeed the capability of working closely with men... It's wonderful to have friends of the opposite sex. If democracy is to survive, we need to know how to interact with anybody and everybody!
So, what's the next book that is coming?! Can you share anything about it?
Jerry:The next book is again based loosely on one of my cases. A married guy with a girlfriend (imagine that) who gets upset when she wants to include other men in their relationship. She somehow goes missing and then a bunch of women are being killed. We just started this book but it's coming along well, and I think it will be a good one.
I'm glad I asked each of you to provide answers. It is clear reading this discussion that you two indeed make up a Dynamic Duo, one which will continue to create many future novels spotlighting Ricky Burns! I'm so happy to have had a chance to learn more about the two of you in this small way... May God be with you as you share how just one man who works to do good and one woman who writes and also crusades for democracy, together, can create a fantastic series of good over evil!
Can't wait for your next book! Thanks again for visiting Book Readers Heaven!
Jay and Ricky were having lunch in a little out of the way deli. Ricky called the meeting because he had things to tell him that he didn’t want Collette to hear. Carter had come to him a couple of days after the fire, when he learned the trailer that burnt down belonged to Terri Riley. When he realized it was the woman that Karen had cheated on Barb with, he knew just how badly he had screwed up and he had to come clean to Ricky. It’s not like he knew it was going to be Terri’s trailer when he told them how to burn one down, but he should have been reporting everything regardless of whether or not he thought it was important to the case. The reason he gave was they’d come to him about burning down an abandoned trailer for the insurance money. He’d lied about the reason his cap was lined with tin foil, which was an enigma to him. There was no way to know how many other things Carter hadn’t been straight with him about and more and more he thought Carter was just untrustworthy. He was sure that Carter was hiding even simple truths. Ricky knew how dangerous this case had become and he felt he had to confide in people who would do the right thing if anything happened to him—and with each day that passed, he became surer that his life was in serious danger. “So you’re saying that the tin man has definitely gone off the reservation and you don’t know what he’s not telling you or what he’s telling you that could be lies?” “Yup. That’s about what I’m telling you. Those rednecks are bad people. They wouldn’t think twice about killing anyone who crosses them. They gave me that warning shot that messed up my pretty face believing that would get rid of me. Now they know I’m not going anywhere. Carter has lost his way. I can’t trust him about anything at this point and I’ve got to solve this murder.”
“Ricky, don’t be a hero. I can drop this case and be done with all of it. Nothing’s worth losing your life.” “Um, ‘Ricky don’t be a hero, don’t be a fool with your life’—wasn’t that a song from the seventies, Jay? Not going to happen. I’ve never walked away before and I’m not going to walk now. I just wanted you to know the situation and make sure Collette doesn’t know anything about it. Between this case and Becky’s incessant calls, she’s already upset enough. I’m meeting with Bill Sewell and Carol Brooklyn tonight to give them what I know. I can’t go to the police up there in Okeechobee because I think about half their force is involved in the camp. I’ll be careful, but I want you to be careful as well, and keep an eye on Collette.” “Okay. I’m not happy about it, but I’ll play it your way.” “I’ve got the police patrolling your office regularly. If you have any kind of problem, you’ve got Carol and Bill’s numbers. Call them. When Ricky called Carol about meeting up that night, the first thing she wanted to know was if darts were involved and did he have plenty of money. She agreed to call Bill and meet him about seven in a bar that didn’t have a dart board. After catching up over a few drinks and having some laughs, Ricky got serious and started filling in the details of the case.
“I can’t go to the Okeechobee cops because a good number of them belong to the camp. They’ve already taken a shot at me, burnt down a trailer, and although I don’t know what their end game is, they’re sure as hell playing for keeps. I wanted you to know everything I know and if anything happens to me, make sure all the right people know. “Also, I want you to keep an eye on Jay and Collette. I know you’ve already got a patrol over there, but now that the red hats are involved, I need some peace of mind so I can do my job without worrying about them all the time.” Ricky went into the details and Bill and Carol asked plenty of questions. When they were comfortable that everyone knew their parts, they had one more drink toasting Ricky and assuring him they’d see to it he had a proper burial. They also promised to watch over Jay and Collette... The fire, and Carter’s part in it, bothered Ricky more than he thought it should. His first instinct had been to pull him out of the camp and treat him like a cabana boy. He could run errands and do research that didn’t put him near the red hats. After arguing with himself for a couple of days, he decided to let Mr. B stay with the red hats for anything he might retrieve. Of course, he'd have to discount a good part of what he told him, but at least he’d have someone inside the camp. Maybe his conscience would kick in and he’d actually keep his role straight. That would be a long shot though. Ricky was on his way to Barb/Bob’s’ house to see if maybe she knew something about the fire. He didn’t know whether they were just trying to go up a notch in the attempts to frighten the lesbians and it was a coincidence that it happened to be Terri Riley’s trailer; or had they chosen Terri’s trailer to send a specific message. It was an awfully big coincidence that it was her trailer and Ricky had never believed in coincidence. There had to be an underlying reason...
~~~
I woke up at 3 AM, my heart racing with adrenaline, I was remembering that I and other women were in a fight with many men chasing, but at the close of the dream I asked if anybody wanted to go to have something to drink... Immediately I was confused. So was the fight real? Suddenly I understood. I had read and finished Killer Camp, the new Ricky Burns Mystery right before I turned out the lights... It was not what I had expected even though I knew the theme before I started to read...
I stayed there in bed, thinking about the book and how and what I would write about it. Suddenly, I recognized a theme: I wanted to analyze the true victim of the story... Or was he? I'm still not sure...
You see, although written as a mystery, with new characters based upon the latest case that had come to His lawyer boss and Ricky, working as his Investigator, I was reading... True Crime... I don't really like True Crime. Just the fact that it is real rather than fiction, doesn't allow me, the reader, to sink into the mystery, to look for the clues that the writer had "created" and try to figure out what was going to happen before the end of the book...
True Crime books, while maybe establishing a setting, such as Killer Camp, and adding a number of random characters surrounding the story, the basic storyline is based upon Truth... Not Fiction... The Reality of Life is what I want to escape, often, when choosing which book to read... But, as most of us know now, True Crime is TOO alive and well in America--in an unprecedented way. One I, and all potential readers of this book, have been living in since around 2015...
The book starts quite differently. A murder has already been committed. A woman was arrested, found guilty and imprisoned. A new lawyer has been hired to appeal the case, based upon having ineffective counsel. Jay Kirshman as been hired; Ricky Burns has already started gathering preliminary information by interviewing the previous lawyer, who Ricky quickly determines is a "dud," and goes on to find that he doesn't even have an office, but works out of his home! There certainly was bound to be enough documentation to ensure the case could be opened again!
Of course, the next action Ricky wanted to concentrate on was where the body of Karen Rogers' body was found on a family farm. When he got there, however, he immediately saw there were signs of no trespassing and mean dogs. He continued on, seeing two older men. One was the father of the man he wanted to talk to, who quickly aggressively pointed out his lack of attention to the signs and that he might get in trouble that way... Immediately, based upon how the man talked, he realized that he had met his first "Redneck."
As he quick-stepped back to his car, he remembered Jay warning him that this was Redneck country, how mean and nasty they were, and to be careful. Ricky had smiled at him and talked about when he was facing other criminals in the city and was sure he'd be able to deal with these guys... Now, he wasn't so sure, going over what had just been said...
One of the guys looked hard at Ricky. “Don’tcha know how t’read, boy? Yer trespassin’.” “Yeah. I noticed, but there was no other way to get here without trespassing.” “Think yer funny? What you lookin’ fer—a beatin’?” “Nope. I’m looking for Bennie Arnold. I’m a private investigator working for the attorney who represents Becky Collins. She’s appealing her murder conviction and I just need a few minutes with Bennie.” “I’m Bennie’s paw, Harry. Bennie’s been going through a rough time. He got hooked onto drugs and is in a bad way. He ain’t talkin’ to no one. So git back into yer automobile and git the fuck off our property. Now.” “You’re Becky’s uncle. I thought surely you’d be more interested in helping her.” The old man stepped over into Rick’s face while the other guy picked up a shovel and started towards him. Ricky thought it was an awful time for him to have left his gun in the car. “Becky’s paw is my brother. I never liked my brother or any of his kin. And I’ll tell ya one more thing. If I see ya around here again, I’ll put ya in the ground and no one will ever find ya. Ever!”
After reading about 50 pages, I began to see the routine clues that readers find in a mystery, but these clues seemed familiar, too familiar. Soon, discussions began about the woman who had been murdered, having been involved with both women and men, that she had money which was often used to buy gifts for men with whom she was involved, while she might also have another lover, a female, with whom she was in love. Soon Ricky was visiting The Lez-be Friends Trailer Park, where Terri Riley lived. She had been identified as being a former connection with the victim.
But as he was beginning the discussion, he was having trouble concentrating because of the close gunfire, sounding much like target practice, that he could hear in the background. Finally, he asked about it and learned that it was a group on a farm very close to their Park, who were constantly harassing those living there. Ricky asked about who they were and Terri lumped them all as "white supremacists," then made them more readily identified as:
...They constantly play creepy little games like knocking our trash pails over, throwing garbage onto our lawns and wiping excrement on our homes. Tough guys going after women. Little minds, lots of games.” “Who’s doing it and why?” “White supremacists. They’re all over the place, practicing for the revolution. They’re an uneducated, ruthless group of rednecks. Talk about your basic trailer trash. We could move, but to where? We’re a little concerned that they’ll eventually accidentally start shooting us, but to date, we’ve managed to come and go without incident except for an occasional tossed garbage can and smashed mailbox. Some way to live, huh?” “I’m from New York where it isn’t as obvious, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. The United States has become an angry place since 2016. I hope I live to see the pendulum swing back.”
And then I read a name...then another name... and I realized that this novel is a fictionalized background story, pre-January 6th Attack on the Capitol! So I honed in on a new character that had been introduced into the investigation team, based upon a friend of a friend type of thing where somebody needs a job...
Supposedly, Jay would be hiring somebody based upon a request of a friend, but he would hopefully be "backup" for Ricky given what they were learning about the people who were potentially being investigated as to who actually murdered the woman. As the character was described, almost immediately I had a picture of a young boy, just 17, who had committed murder during a protest... But, the character was older, had worked as a guard in a prison and was thinking about becoming a PI... As soon as Ricky saw him, he was...concerned...
What begins thereafter is the birth of a killer... a wolf in sheep's clothing... or a sheep trying to be a wolf, a self-absorbed man in a generation where selfishness is normal, based upon their home environment, and everything is viewed from their own perspective. I knew him right away. The authors intended him to be recognized. He is the individual who is confronted with meeting a breed of individuals who have gone too far during their entire lives, being who they wanted to be and creating lies about anybody who opposes their own beliefs... You know, readers, you might have heard a few testify at the Congressional Hearing on the January 6th Insurrection... The ones who said they thought they were doing what was right and had to be done... The ones who were so inundated by those who had created a false life in which to live...
Killer Camp was a location, supposedly one of many around America, where men are preparing for a revolution... There is talk about it in secret groups on the Internet. Within the Camp, there is constant pressure to assimilate--the character is being transformed within a few hours for readers, but it was days, weeks, perhaps even longer for some to become this individual, the one who is so prepared to kill, to protect himself, that nothing, and nobody else matters... This is Killer Camp.
We talked about it beginning in 2015 or thereabouts. But these militia groups have been around for many years hiding their thoughts, their own values, but slowly infiltrating... until they are consumed, with an ultimate leader who frees them to act...
Key in the book is the fact that there are police officers who are embedded with those living and planning a revolution at the Killer Camp. Thus, confusion surrounds the thinking of the latest victim. The victim that they know better than the victim knows himself...
Laurence and Lyons have taken a major step in writing this book. They joined the many writers who are reporting what they see as is happening in today's world. They, like the actual victims involved in the January 6th Insurrection, have documented their own involvement, have determined that they must speak out. The Importance and the Impact of this book is significant, far-reaching; and, yet, sadly a commentary on the damage, the danger, of what one or more, perceived, strong dictatorial leaders can do to the mind of a young, very insecure mind...
Today, Tell Yourself There Will Be No Revolution! Today, Vote to Ensure that Those Who Hate--those who TEACH Hate Will Not Succeed...
Read Killer Camp. A must-read. If you are still unsure about how the split of America has occurred, then you need to see how a young impressionable man/men can be affected by lies, hate, constant planning for revolution/war, learning how to shoot to kill, carrying a weapon that has no value except to kill... This book is not a Mystery! It's happening right now, Readers... The Mystery is How It Is Happening in America!
